QH Pedigree analysis for novice

crysann · Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:03 am Post subject:

I wanted to say good luck it's a tough business trying to decide which stud to breed to, it gets very complicated and the end result is so important that i know i've had MANY sleepless nights trying to decide what to do.
I will say this, I agree that the pedigree is Very important, it can tell you what the capabilities of a horse could be, but I have seen many horses bred to do one thing and come into this world with something else on their mind.
For example, I have a mare now that is bred for speed both top and bottom, but I think that she has WP on her mind, she's calm slow and easy has an awesome jog and a natural collected lope.
So with all that said, I always made my final decision based on what my mare had. For example if she had a strong pedigree with WP or cutting then I went with the stud that could INHANCE those qualities.
BUT (yes I'm going to say but), keep in mind that you can cross your fingers and wish and pray, but each and every horse is an individual and in the end God will decide what you get in that foal.
Take the time to study the QH, look at pedigrees, look at videos on Youtube, look at pictures on line. It is very time consuming to learn about a breed of horse in a short amount of time, (I just got a crash course on APHA). But it is worth it. I enjoyed the research I did and with the world wide internet its AMAZING what you can find out.
Once again good luck. Very Happy

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nrhareiner · Member Joined: 14 May 2005 Posts: 154 Location: Ohio

For me when I am looking for a horse either as a prospect or for breeding I ALWAYS look at pedigree first. B/C if it dose not have the pedigree I want it dose not matter what it looks like or its temperment. I will not look at it.

The first mare is has quite a bit of Western Pleasure lines. B/C of that I would look for a stallion who can compliment her on those lines. Also Keep in mind that Zippo Pine Bar is a HERDA carrier so you need to test her and make sure if you are looking at a stallion with that line he should also be tested. She has a nice all around lines to her. You could also look for a stallion who also have nice all around lines. Te my Eternal Sun Bars g-son is breed to be an all around horse. He has running halter Reining lines and all 4 lines are very well proven as is he. So unless you are looking to compet at a high level in one event that may be a good way to go.

Same with the other mare. Top side she has some older cutting and reinining lines bottom is more speed and halter. I would also consider Impressive speed breeding. Again a nice all around horse/stallion. You can look at a reining stallion but I will tell you this as a reiner it will not pay. Reiners are like cutter they do not want impressive in their pedigree. Te have been shown and done quite well in NRHA Green events and so have some of his foals. His sire is the sire of many reiners and reined cow horses yet I do not campain him as a reining sire b/c of his bottom breeding. He sires dam is a 1/2 sister to the dam of shinning spark. To reiners that dose not matter.

Again. You need to deside what you want for the resulting foal.

Heidi
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horsetrainer89 · Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject:

NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject:

I find it a lot more useful to actually look at the horse to figure out if can do the job I want it to do. But then, after 41 years of involvement with hroses, I guess I have the experience to do that, while someone who is just starting out hasn't learned how to yet.

Plus, as my pedigreed horses have horses that have produced progeny that have shone in a variety of disciplines, I know that a pedigree doesn't always tell you what a horse can do.

Diane
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nrhareiner · Member Joined: 14 May 2005 Posts: 154 Location: Ohio

I agree that the pedigree may not tell you want a horse can or can not do. However for me I find since my end goal is a breeding horse I want the complet package and since my disapline is prity set into Reining and reined cow horse I find that I want a very specifice pedigree. I have found over several decades of breeding/showing as you stated that I can look at a pedigree, knowing the individual horses in that pedigree and know what they should look like, what their personality should/will be, how trainable that horse should be. Over the years as long as the horse is very closely bred to certain lines I can predict quite well if that horse will do what I want. Given that when I look at that horse it lives up to that breeding. Some do not and those are the ones I say nice but I will keep looking.

Heidi
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NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject:

I guess I just come from a strange background. Laughing

While I have always had nothing but pedigreed horses, I come from a discipline, and time frame for that discipline, where the conformation of the horse was always what counted. Heck, even today, there's a mixed bag of a horse-n-pony that's scorching up the wins (Teddy--he's 1/4th shetland pony Shocked

) And of course, my chosen breed, well-known as a "western" breed, has produced a horse that took Olympic gold...

So yeah, pedigrees are a nice tool, but will never be the end-all, must-have, takes-precedence-over-everything item that I have seen some people make it into. I much rather see the horse, see its progeny, and compare it to our mares to see if a nick exists. A pedigree simply allows me to decide if I need to do further investigation (i.e., if a horse has Poco Bueno or Impressive behind it).

Diane
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horsetrainer89 · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject:

I disagree. If you look at a pedigree and you actually know what you are looking at and the horses on the pedigree, you can tell what that horse is bred for and a naturally talented horse is better than one that you need to teach it what to do it. A horse that is bred for reining will show reining characteristics as a foal. One bred for cutting will show cutting characteristics as a foal, etc. If you have the knowledge of pedigrees then you don't even need to look at a horse to see what it will do. I breed my horses for specific disciplines. My cutters are strictly cutting backgrounds, my reiners are strictly reining background, my barrel racers are strictly barrel backgrounds, etc. I think it makes more sense that way. You will know what you will get in that horse by its pedigree. It really isn't that difficult once you have done your research and know what each horse expresses through its foals.

Oh and NZ, you think my spelling is bad.

NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject:

blindleadingdeaf&dumb · Weanling Joined: 21 Apr 2008 Posts: 8

ANYWAY,

back to the subject at hand... (just for the record, NZ, I'm with you... my opinion is that papers have caused a lot of trouble for the QH breed, but that's a completely different sh!t-starter. I'll leave that alone.)

I haven't gotten any pictures up of the mares yet, but I'm vain, and they're still a little hairy and not presentable in my opinion. I'd like them to look as good as they possibly can before I ask you to rip them to shreds. Wink

So, considering you can't look at them to see how they'd cross with these guys, how about a general opinion of these two horses I found.

This fella would be for Rio Chili Pepper, the non-cutting horse...
http://www.barzbarranch.com/BarZBarQuarterHorses/I%20Kando.html

And this flashy guy would be for Sheik's New Look, who is the WP mare. I'm taking into consideration what someone said about looking outside of WP. I like the idea of adding a bigger step to this mare, because she can tend to shuffle if you let her.
http://www.hanesperformancehorses.com/justexpectit.html

I'd like honest opinions, but please be considerate. I haven't had any contact with either of these farms, and I'd hate for someone to Google their stallion and find a bunch of catty remarks. (Horsetrainer89, if you can't play nice, don't play at all.)

NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:11 am Post subject:

Proof I Kando isn't bad looking, but the pix are on the small side, there are no other pix available, and for a stallion that's 7 years old, I'd want to see foal pix (and hopefully at dam's side, so I could compare mares to mine)... He's a little long in the back for my liking, but that could be a result of the photography--horses don't always photo well in a full-on side shot like his, and that saddled photo is just about useless for critique purposes. With him going back to Doc Olena and Poco Tivio, I'd be wanting a HERDA test result, if not on him, then on dam and sire.

Arts Self Portrait--hard to say on the movement photos, as they've been "cleaned up" to the point where it's difficult to see the horse. The neck seems like it might be a bit short, and I can't get a good "feel" for the horse's throatlatch, but he's got a nicely coupled back, and looks like he could definitely drive from behind. I'm a little annoyed that his pasterns are hidden by the flowers, and everything else is so artsy. Shoulder is too upright for my liking, but then I am looking at him with an eye to FEI disciplines.

In short, I would asking for more natural photos, standing square and at liberty, of both horses, and pictures of progeny.

Diane
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horsetrainer89 · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:18 am Post subject:

blindleadingdeaf&dumb · Weanling Joined: 21 Apr 2008 Posts: 8

Pumpkin, can you limit your fighting to other threads? Rolling Eyes

mandj · Yearling Joined: 01 Dec 2007 Posts: 12

I agree whole-heartedly with NZ Appaloosas-there have been many many times where the horse simply did not represent their papers and I have seen many that exceeded where bloodlines did not indicate discipline at all.

The two year old I had last year was by in far a better example of a stallion prospect with a future then what you are pushing 89-his key factors were first and foremost his balance, muscle and je ne sais quoi-his pedigree backed up his conformation, and his smarts and temperment sealed the package. His first foals are mirror images so the fact that his gene pool is strong and he is very prepotent is a great bonus.

The problem I see is that your posts belie what you are trying to perpetrate yourself as-this used to be a respectable board where people were not harassed-ridiculed-segregated-but came here to share-learn-and help without the BS.

There are some amazing and knowledgeable people on this board who have met with and learnt from some of the greatest names in stock horse history-and book smarts has ZERO worth compared to applied knowledge.

One of the most important things I have always taught my children is to listen and learn and most importantly.... respect their elders.

We all know you'll come back with one of your dear snippy comments...how bout for once you prove everyone wrong Rolling Eyes

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nrhareiner · Member Joined: 14 May 2005 Posts: 154 Location: Ohio

The reason I look so hard at pedigree before anything is the fact that no matter what the horses conformations is. I do not want to wast my time looking at a horse and find that it is WP bred or Halter bred or even have a lot of Cutting lines in there. Once I find a horse with the pedigree I want then I will go look at it. If the conformation is not there for what I want or the temperment or movement then I will keep looking. In todays market it is not hard to find it all.

Granted you will find the odd horse out but they are few and far between any more and I tend to like to hedge my bets when it cost so much to train show and campain one these days I want the best I can find in all regards. I tend to not even look at grand get any longer. Just sold a very very nice finished reiner who was a g-son of Doc O'Lena out of a G-daughter of Peppy San with Gay Bar King on his papers along with Leo Bingo. Just am sticking with own daughters and breeding to out side stallion. Cheeper to do that then to keep show prove a stallion then campain them and advertise them to keep them out there.

As for the colt. I know every line inthere very well. No No WOW factor there until you get in the 3-4 generation and even there it is what I would consider just OK. I would not even look at him with that padigree no matter what he dose in the show ring. Now when I can get a proven stallion with a much better pedigree. I have been breeding for about longer then you have been alive. I have owned horses bred horses who have won more then you can even immage. Some of my horses that I have purchased as prospects have come from some of the top reining breeders in NRHA History. Which I can tell you know very little about.

I can also tell you know very little about reining by just your oppion of my mare in that ONE Picture. Since you have NEVER won anything in NRHA I will give you the benifit of the doubt do to your age.

Heidi
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nrhareiner · Member Joined: 14 May 2005 Posts: 154 Location: Ohio

Also forgot to add. I can name you more horses who have excelled in other areas that differ from their breeding. Boozo is a very good example of this. Doc Bar is anouther as is Impressive. Not one of those horses was bred to do what they excelled in.

I can go on and on. Hollywood Jac was bred to be a cutter but b/c of he location ended up being a reiner and sired reiners. Mr Gun Smoke was again breed to be more of a cutter but again ended up a great reining sire.

As for registering in NFQH. Most modern reiners and cutters would more the quaify. All but one of my mares would qualify with quite a bit to spear.

Heidi
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