Honey Toe: What's His Real Breeding?

[whnywriter]

If there are any Appaloosa buffs out there, I'd like you to look at Honey Toe's pedigree and tell me how he could possibly be bred this way?

I saw his mother at Hadley Campbell's place near Gurnee, Illinois in 1967. Hadley had her in a dark, back stall in his barn. She was a little, non-descript bay roan Appaloosa mare with AQHA papers. I never saw her outside of that dark stall so I can't speak to her exact conformational traits.

In looking at her pedigree, there is not a single documented Appaloosa in it.

It has long been my opinion that she was probably sold (at private treaty or through a sale) as a "solid" filly and then whoever sold or bought her put the fraudulent papers on her. Much to someone's chagrin, she then colored up. She would have always had some parti-colored skin...somewhere. I've personally had solid-looking fillies whose only parti-colored skin was a finger nail-sized pink spot beween their nipples; and they colored up and developed more parti-colored skin.

As much as it galls me, I'm afraid this attaching of AQHA papers to solid Paints and Appaloosas was a fairly common practice in the 1950s, 1960s and even into the 1970s...before blood-typing and before DNA. The rumors abound that Hank W. did it throughout his 70+ career as a horse breeder.

This pedigree manufacturing is my explaination for Appaloosas like Wild Hope and Eastern Riker and Paint horses like Three Oil. Neither of the Appaloosas have any Appaloosas in their pedigree and Three Oil was a minimally colored overo...with a decided Mighty Bright look to him...that colored up and sired many Paintaloosas and Appaloosas...

Pat and Dee...I especially hope you weigh in on this.

Frank Holmes
Kiowa, CO

[Linda_D]

I think part of the issue may be that back in the 1940s-1970s, we didn't know as much about horse color genetics as we do today. Also, the AQHA wasn't exactly sensible about its rules on white markings, either. A horse with too much white for the rules was banned from the registry (because it supposedly was a "paint") but its full siblings could be registered provided they didn't show too much white. Today, we know that there are genes that not only control white marking patterns (sabino, rabicano, etc) but also the expression of these patterns. We also know that the sabino gene, for example, which is responsible for many paints, can be minimally expressed (stockings, blaze, small belly spots) or maximally expressed (almost all white) with lots of increments in between.

There is also the fact that some, perhaps many, Appaloosas that were minimally marked, were registered with the AQHA as "roans" or "blue roans" in the 1940s and 1950s. The great Appaloosa Wapiti was by an AQHA sire out of an AQHA registered "roan" mare named Cuadroon (Quadroon) bred by Marshall Peavy from stock with lots of Coke Roberds blood (where the Appy blood came from). BTW, the Appy blood in Hank Weiscamp's horses also came from their Coke Robards breeding -- one of Robards early stallions was an Appaloosa called "The Circus Horse".

Keep in mind, too, that in the early years of the AQHA, horses were registered only after inspection. If the horse had acceptable conformation, limited white markings or could pass as a roan or gray, it was registered independent of its actual parentage. Consequently, the great AQHA race mare, Maddon's Bright Eyes, was registered with the AQHA even though her dam was the unregistered pintaloosa mare, Plaudette, that also produced the great Appaloosa, Bright Eyes Brother.

I think it was less a case of "fraud" in many instances than in the way the AQHA registration rules and procedures worked, especially in the early days, although I'm sure that there certainly was some fraud involved in some cases.

[whnywriter]

Hi Linda,

Thanks for your comments. I am familiar with the Coke Roberds horses. I knew Cecil Dobbin, Lane Hudson and Mavis Peavy and have written historical articles about them and Bright Eyes Brother, Mighty Bright and Peavy Bimbo/Wapiti. I know exactly where the color comes from here...it's an unbroken line.

This is not the case with horses like Honey Toe, Wild Hope and Eastern Riker. Their pedigrees are fraudulent because, as listed, there are no Appaloosas in them. In my opinion, it is impossible to get an Appaloosa from two solid horses; at least one parent must have parti-colored skin.

I have photos of Cuadroon...Wapiti's dam...when she was young and on the race track. All I can see in these photos is the white sclera around her eye. I also have seen a photo of her as an old mare. By this time, she had roaned out and was an easily-recognizable Appaloosa. Some of the Roberds/Peavy mares did not roan out until they were aged and having foals.

Frank Holmes

[NZ Appaloosas]

Frank, is it possible that there are apps behind Honey Toe that were so minimal that even today they'd not get regular papers? The reason I ask is that we have a black mare that fits into that category, despite her being an LP carrier--she only has really thin white stripes on the feet, a hint of sclera, and mottling that took the vet to find during the first AI session.



Diane
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"Nothing can be sliced so thin that it doesn't have two sides" Anon.

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[whnywriter]

Hi Diane,

I think that there have always been Appaloosas like you describe...I had one leased a couple of years ago. Her name is Skip N Shasta and her pedigree is on this site. She was an apricot-colored red dun with a lot of parti-colored skin under her tail. Other than that, she had no real body color and her white sclera and striped hooves, although there, weren't really noticable. But she was as Appaloosa as any loud-colored horse.

In instances like this, you should be able to trace the Appaloosa color back in an unbroken line.

In horses like Honey Toe and Wild Hope, whose dams I saw, that Appaloosa dam is the only colored horse in the pedigree and that means, to me, that the dam is a ringer...she was a nice minimal colored filly that someone decided would be worth putting AQHA papers on. Back before blood typing and DNA, it was easy to do and I personally knew of more than one person who made it a regular practice...generally a horse trader, not a breeder.

Frank

[Linda_D]

In the case of Honey Toe, his dam might very well have been bred as stated. I say this because her sire, Juneteenth Rastus, sired another Appaloosa (out of an Appy mare) according to the records on the database. It may be that her breeder had a herd of mixed grade mares/registered mares.

Also, Juneteenth Rastus' BMS, Good Eye, is listed as a red roan, which might mean anything from being a true roan, a loudly expressed rabicano, or possibly a minimally marked "roan" Appaloosa. He might also have been a pinto or even a pintaloosa -- while the pedigree query record shows him as a "Quarter Horse", the info field gives him an APHA registration number.

When dealing with AQHA horses foaled in the 1930s and 1940s, all these horses were registered with the AQHA on how they looked not on how they were bred. It's entirely possible that many, if not most, AQHA inspectors during this time didn't recognize the white scelera, striped hooves, and mottled skin as being Appy characteristics.

[warchief]

First, the Quarterr Horse Good Eye was foaled in 1934 and the APHA was formed in 1962. Do the math. Also Good Eye APHA 5509 was a mare.

Second, I guess BMS must mean Dam's Sire.

Third, In the early days of the AQHA a horse had to pass on 1. Breeding 2. Conformation and 3. Performance. If a horse lacked one of these three (many range mares were never broke ) they had to pass on the other two. A horse was not accepted on conformation alone. And most of the inspectors were knowledgable enough to know appy. trates when they saw them.

[warchief]

Forgot to mention, Coke Roberds Appy stud was named Arab. He was sired by The Circus Horse.

[oak orchard]

Hi Frank,

I have a mare named Zip's Wild Omega who carries the blue roan that she inherited from her sire, Wild Zip, a son of Wild Hope. The blue roans seem to be very strong in that family and they are a "sky blue" with flaxen mane and tail, which, in my limited experience, makes them more unusual. Looking at Wild Hope's bottom side, it appears that at least his first three dams were grey/roan mares, the third dam being by Grey Badger II. Any color links through him?

Tim

[whnywriter]

Hi Tim,

I looked up your mare's pedigree and I really like it. Her dam was bred by Dennis Crist, then of Modoc, Kansas. Denny was one of the classiest humans to ever grace the Appaloosa scene, a Hall of Fame breeder and a dear friend. I showed against the Mighty Peavy horses when they were on top and they were tough to get around. Denny passed away...last year I believe, but time gets away from me.

Back to your mare and the Wild Hope horses. My whole point in bringing up Honey Toe's pedigree is that I firmly believe it's false on the bottom...just as I believe Wild Hope's is false on the bottom.

In my opinion, an Appaloosa HAS to come from an unbroken line of color (i.e. parti-colored skin at a minimum) in order to be an Appaloosa. The color doesn't skip generations and it doesn't magically appear.

I've argued this point for decades and have yet to be convinced otherwise.

I guess we would all like pedigrees to be accurate and complete. Unfortunately, that's not the nature of the beast...especially in the days before blood-typing and DNA.

I know for a fact that there were marginally-colored Appaloosas of Coke Roberds and Marshall Peavy breeding that made their way into the early AQHA stud books. But, WITHOUT FAIL, I can still trace the Appaloosa color in these horses' pedigrees in an unbroken line that antedates the registrys.

If an Appaloosa has a pedigree where the color runs out; where it can't be verified or is non-existent...then I will continue to view that pedigree with suspicion.

Frank Holmes
Kiowa, Colorado

[F3047]

Hi FH, WE met at the appaloosa awards banquet a couple of years ago, I was with Bill Cass at the banquet, when Patchy Jr. was accepted as a hall of Fame horse. The only horse I have an opinion on is Wild Hope. Bill showed me some old sale bills which very clearly showed a mare descended from Midnight That had Appaloosa roan pattern on its back very similar to some of colida's descendants. It was on an old sale bill that Bill had kept from an auction years ago.
Midnight Jr. was the sire of this horse I believe.
If midnight Jr had appaloosa traits then the blue roan blood line came up through the bottom of the pedigree.
Paul Pruett
_________________
Destiny is no matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It is a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be acheived.
William Jennings Bryan

[Linda_D]

[F3047]

Here we go again back to Colida.
Of course you all know that Bill Cass was the owner of Colida, and his thoughts were that the sire might have been Roan Wolf...where did Roan wolf get his appaloosa characteristics?
Possible it was Midnight? Again this is heresy to believe that Walter Merrick could have had a Appaloosa....I believe he was the owner of Midnight or Midnight Jr.?
Oh and wasn't Wild Hopes dam kicked out of the AQHA for coloring up?
F3047
_________________
Destiny is no matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It is a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be acheived.
William Jennings Bryan

[whnywriter]

In the process of writing "Wire to Wire," I came to know Walter Merrick quite well. He owned Midnight Jr.; knew his sire and knew his dam. None of them were Appaloosas.

I know Bill Cass believes that Roan Wolf is the sire of Colida; we've had detailed conversations about it and he's sent me numerous copies of old sale catalogs as well as copies of other photographs.

I've seen several red and/or bay roans in my life that looked for all the world that they had an Appaloosa blanket over their hips. They didn't and they had absolutely no other characteristics.

The Conductor was a red roan Appaloosa with a small blanket...and I meand a QH type of base roan color, not an Appaloosa roan. He got his roan color from his dam, Dandys Sugarette, and she got her QH roan coloring from Roan Hancock.

Darrell Dodds told me that The Conductor foals were the absolute hardest to register because the staff could not tell from the photos whether the were Appaloosas or QH-type roan horses that "looked" Appaloosa. Most had to be physically inspected...for parti-colored skin...

As far as Wild Hope's dam is concerned, I believe that Jake Snipes in NM wound up with her and began advertising her dam as "the only double-registered AQHA/ApHC mares in existance. Not a bright move, because it made some AQHA folks mad and they brought the situation up to AQHA...and AQHA pulled the papers on both mares.

These two mares were good ones...Alberta Mott Doolin was registered with AQHA as Alberta Doolin. She was "AA"-rated on the tracks and the dam of Miss Wild Deck (by Top Deck), who was "AAA"-rated.

I remain of the opinion that the bottom side of Wild Hope's pedigree is false...their is an unbroken line of color behind him on the bottom and someone, at some point, knew/knows exactly what it is. I doubt we'll ever know.

Frank Holmes
Kiowa, CO

[x factor fan]

Got a couple of questions about this thread which seems to be going round and round.

First about everyone's definition of Appaloosa.

Do spots make an appy? Or roaning?


Secondly, is the two genes on seperate chromosomes theory about Appy color accepted?

Think of the two appy genes, (lp) and (pattern) like the two genes needed to make up bay. So breeding a black horse to a chestnut and getting bay would be a crop out, since neither parent is bay.

Thirdly do you accept minimal expression? A appy color that is so minimal that it is either hard or impossible to see? And this should include horses that carry two or more patterns that could mask the appy characteristics.