Marion's Girl's colt

NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:32 pm Post subject:

Okay, forget Tomahawk for the moment...Lady Snowtime's ancestral photos are on allbreed (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=lady+snowtime&g=9&query_type=photos&search_bar=photos&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0) and she produced this http://www.skewbaldracingstables.com/mares/lady-snowflake.htm by Southern Gentleman, whose ancestral photos are here: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?h=southern+gentleman2&g=9&query_type=photos&search_bar=photos&inbred=Standard&x2=n&username=&password=&x=0&y=0

Not a broken colour amongst them...

Diane
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warchief · Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject:

Except for the black with recessive overo genes, I would have spotted the rest of your examples as tobianos right off. As for Tomahawk and Lady Snowflake I've agree they have solid sires, but I'll bet a months pay that their dams had color. Not much, but enough to tell they had it.

NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:11 pm Post subject:

Enough that the average John Q Public could tell? Keep in mind, I am not arguing the need for a horse to be genetically tobiano (or Lp or which ever pattern or colour one wishes to use)...genes cannot hide in that fashion...but what I am saying is that phenotypically, patterns, colours, modifiers can "hide" in the generations, simply because someone was not as educated in colours as they could have been, or the genetic knowledge wasn't there back in the day, or that there was something else going on that affected the colour (i.e., our bay filly with black torso and brown legs).

Heck, we had a palomino born of a "chestnut" mare and our old "fewspot" leopard. So either the mare or our stallion was carrying creme--my money was on the mare being a tostado palomino...our old stallion has dun with blanket listed on his ApHC papers, which we have, yet ask anyone around here about him and they'll say he was a black fewspot, despite him being pure white from his nostrils to his heels. And quite honestly, I've seen some real head-scratchers when it comes to comparing what the registry claims a horse's colour is to the photos/actual horse...

So anyhoo, when I say "hide" (note the quote marks), I am referring solely and only to phenotype, not genetics, and with that definition in mind, I maintain my stance that there are a number of white patterning genes that "hide" until the full genetic recipe is there for expression.

Diane
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NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject:

whnywriter · Active Member Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Posts: 429

Diane,

Call me a "Doubting Thomas" but, until I see the photos of both of the tobiano Standardbred's parents...and see that his alleged parentage is DNA-verified, then I'm going to put this in my "somebody lied" file.

Frank

warchief · Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:48 am Post subject:

Diane,

I'm just courious. How many Paints have you bred? I know you have Appaloosas, but how many Paints.

Warchief

x factor fan · Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:11 am Post subject:

If you think of genes as beads on a necklace. Linked genes are on the same necklace.

Equine chromosome #3 has Extension (base coat color) Roan and KIT ( a large gene that has a huge number of color genes including sabino and Dominant White)

To extend the metaphor to the two number #3 chromosomes every horse carries:

A horse could have one "necklace" with one black bead (black base coat) and a white bead representing Sabino.

The other "necklace" could have a red bead (red base coat) and speckled bead represenging Roan.

Whole "necklaces" move together. So the horse in question will hand off a complete "necklace" either black and sabino, or red and roan.

Crossovers are when the necklaces get broken and the beads are mixed up before being re-strung.

In this case there could be a Black bead and a speckled bead on the same string (black base coat, and Roan) or red base coat and sabino.

There's a whole shift in horse color perception going on as we shift from phenotype (what the horse looks like) to genotype (the actual genes involved)

grullotobi · Yearling Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 25 Location: kansas

While it is true the LP for appys needs another genes present to express, this is not so for the tobiano gene***(IN STOCK BREEDS)

Please note the huge disclaimer. Miniatures/Ponies are a whole nuther kettle of fish when it comes to tobiano expression. (they make me twitch, they express different than big horses, they can have only one leg white, or so I've been told)

But, if we are talking APHA horses, then the tobiano gene will *almost always* express as 4 socks and some white on top of the hip or shoulder. There are minimal (solid***) paint horses, but they have little or no white on the head, and 4 white socks. This event is pretty darn rare, although it seems to trend in certain bloodlines.

I have never seen, nor seen documented an APHA horse that was a tobiano carrier, that didn't have at least the 4 white socks. I've seen one that was claimed, but I think it was back in the day when they were going on blood marker tests, and yeah, that horse had the BS markers that usually are linked with tobiano, but I'm betting the linkage slipped there and that horse never produced a true tobi foal bred to solid. (had only one short sock on the back).

I can think of one tobiano foal that may have been registered as AQHA (may have got rejected, I don't remember now) that was clearly a tobiano, and had two AQHA registered parents. Upon seeing photos of the dam, it is clear she is a minimal tobi, had the socks, no body white, and probably we had a pedigree switch somewhere back in the day.

So, at least for Stock Type Breeds (and I'll hazzard a guess for any breed that carries tobiano, that is over 14.2h) Tobiano will always express, in some way, even a very minimal way, that is recognizable.

On a side note, I have seen where a full blown patterned tobiano missed a leg white.. solid leg up to mid thigh on the back, as I recall.. of course mother nature has to throw a curve ball at any color rule we try to dream up.
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x factor fan · Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:05 pm Post subject:

Here's the catch 22 for breeders.

How many folks test solid horses for anything other than base coat color?

So horses that are "obviously" bay don't get tested for frame or tobiano, or whatever else is floating around the gene pool. Which of course feeds the "You have to have Spamalot to get Spamalot." theory of genetic expression.

So the marked horses, or the minimal horses get tested but the carriers but no markings visible slip through without notice.

NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject:

NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject:

NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:54 pm Post subject:

Linda_D · Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:15 am Post subject:

warchief · Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:00 am Post subject:

I agree. Her sire was out of the King Ranch program an her dam was out of early Scharbauer breeding and neither of the programs are known for crop outs. That is why I was wondering about the colt's sire.

whnywriter · Active Member Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Posts: 429

Having recently written a profile on Marion's Girl for Western Horseman's "Legends 8" book...and soley in the interest of historical accuracy...I'll repeat one of my earlier posts:

According to my research, Marion's Girl never produced a foal. After her performance career was over, she was bred to King P-234 but died before foaling.

Where is the proof that she ever had a foal of any kind..let alone a Paint cropout? Can whoever made the original post on this thread shed some light?

I guess I can ask Buster Welsh...he knew the mare for her entire life...

Frank Holmes
Kiowa, CO