C-Notes Sawbuck

[rodeoratdogs]

Anybody have a picture of C-Notes Sawbuck. Frank?

We are discussing on the color info forum, about this horse, a decendant of C-Note and Nylon.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/too+cool+four+you

Even though he is minimally expressed splash/sabino he seems to be passing Dominant white linked to e (red) every time so far, bred to different mares. We think the origin of the DW is actually Nylon.

Here is article that explains DW and other KIT mutations.

http://www.duncentralstation.com/PDF/KITGeneMutations-Castle.pdf
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[whnywriter]

C Notes Sawbuck (C-Note x Nylon) was not a minimally-expressed sabino. He was just the opposite. He was almost totally white with red ears. He had two loud-colored sabino full sisters...C Note's Valentine and C Note's Memory.

C-Note (Mister J. Bar x Pocohontas) was bred by Junior Robertson of Waurika, Oklahoma...my father-in-law.

Nylon (Roan Bar QH x Bar's Cherry QH) was bred by Riley Miller of Justiceburg, Texas...a long-time friend.

Nylon was a classic "pale red" strawberry roan sabino as was her maternal half-brother Jacket Bar's.

The sabino pattern came from their maternal granddam "Cherry." She was an un-registered daughter of Chubby AQHA P-656 and she was a strawberry roan sabino Paint.

C-Note, Mister J. Bar, Pocohontas, Nyon, Jacket Bar's, "Cherry," C Note's Valentine and C-Note's Memory are all pictured in More than Color Vol. 1.

Back when I was the Features Editor of the Paint Horse Journal, I did another feature article on Nylon and used a head shot of C Note's Sawbuck in it. He was colored very much like Scenic Jetalito, a distant relative.

Frank Holmes
Kiowa, CO

[whnywriter]

I meant to add that, even though I left the Paint Horse Journal more than 10 years ago, the APHA website still features a article I wrote on the sabino gene. It's entitled "Pale Red."

I don't pretend to be a geneticist but I have always enjoyed the historical study of Appaloosa and Paint patterns, mostly to predict the probably chances of color on the offspring.

I've never considered the sabino pattern to be the same kind of a Paint pattern as frame and splashed white. Both of the latter patterns are linked to undesireable traits...OWLS and deafness...while the sabino pattern is not.

Frank Holmes
Kiowa, CO

[rodeoratdogs]

Thank you so much Frank, We have been looking at all the C-Note X Nylon horses we could find pictures of. I know the article you wrote, I believe someone posted it on another topic recently I will go back and find it.

Dominant white and Sabino are both Kit mutations, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it all myself, but from what I understand with the Dominant white gene, it is dominant so it only takes one gene form one even minimally expressed parent, like the stallion above and or Nylon and Whamo you can get a almost all white expressed horse, where as the other variations of KIT or Sabino they are incomplete dominants and need more than one gene to get maximum expression. There is a better explaination in the article I posted above, but that's my take on it.
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[rodeoratdogs]

Here is your article Frank, I don't see C-Notes Sawbuck, but maybe they didn't ad that page, on the online one.
http://www.apha.com/breed/pdf/SabinoDec98.pdf
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[x factor fan]

Dominant White is a very interesting color pattern.

The Dun Central Station article does a very nice job of presenting a complicated problem in clear terms.

Here's some of the things that Dominant White does:

It is a KIT Mutation, this is a very large region on the same chromosome that carries base coat color, so base coat and DW are linked. Also living on the came chromosome are roan, and sabino.

DW is most likely a early embryonic lethal--like most roans are. Expected ratio of breeding DW carriers should be 1 solid, 2DW -solid 1 DW-DW. And is closer to 1:3. No one has found a DW/DW horse.

Each family of DW horses carries their own unique mutation. And KIT seems to mutate quite a lot.

Some families tend toward mostly white horses, some have roany patchy coat patterns. They are not all white.

My guess is that full white expression is boosted by other genes, including sabino. So a horse with DW on one chromosome, and a sabino mutation on the other chromosome will carry more white than a horse with minimal sabino on the other chromosome.

Also I've noticed that there seems to be some sort of boost in pattern when the horse also doesn't carry Agouti (Bay) This could of course be that to get the hightest contrast in color, breeders are selecting against bay and chestnut, so there are more black horses used in the breeding programs.


You might want to take a look at Puchillingui a TB, and his TB son Sato.
Sato looks like one of the pinto/paint patterns. Puchillingui looks more like a dominant white, yet Sato has sired white foals, which indicates that he too carries the Dominant White gene from his sire.

This by the way is new science, the mutations have only been found in the last couple of years. And it pretty much put an end to the debate about white horses.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/puchilingui

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sato

These two cases are interesting because as modern TB's they were blood tested, and DNA types so there is no doubt about the breeding. And TB's aren't noted for carrying a huge amount of white.

Other families of white TB's are the Patchen line. The chestnut stallion KY Colonel

http://www.pedigreequery.com/patchen+beauty.

Airdrie Apache is suspected of being DW, but as to date his particular mutation hasn't been found.

And of course because not all DW horses are solid white, the pattern has been mistaken for all sorts of things. In TB's a number of horses have been registered as roan or gray.

Doesn't help that a horse can be both DW and Sabino to further confuse the issue.

[x factor fan]

Link to Sato, with more full body shots

http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/Sato.html

[rodeoratdogs]

Thanks for the information x factor, I have known of Puchillingui for years, I remember him being advertized in the PHJ in the 90's. Now that I am looking at these DW horses, I am seeing that many of them have a V shape to their white markings, look at the filly Madison by Sato on the link you posted.
Here is a horse that I noticed in this months PHJ that I thought might be DW, he is LWO negative.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/the+ultimate+fancy
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[x factor fan]

I was looking at the white on Sato. High up the leg with the white over the back side. Also the white on the face and the barrel. Looks quite a bit like the distribution of the white on the Nylon horses.

Knowing nothing about Paint horses, are there lines known for throwing completely white horses?

Looks like you've got a good understanding of how the gene works. If you have some horses identified, have you contacted some of the researchers with offers of hair samples?

[rodeoratdogs]

[x factor fan]

One of the versions of DW presents with a faux leopard appy pattern. Looks like a couple of those horses have.

Wonder if the researchers ever thought of looking into the paint gene pool. Wonder how may paints have some version of DW? Might be quite a few

[rodeoratdogs]

You know, I don't know if the researchers have looked into the Paint gene pool or not, I'm just learning about it myself. I joined the the color-info forum to learn what was up with my mares unusual face markings, but it's great because I'm learning all kinds of things about equine color. It's a good question though, I'll have to look into if they have or not.
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[rodeoratdogs]

I just wanted to ad that since DW has been identified in TB's and QH's I would be surprized if it wasn't found in Paint's at one point since they have been interbred since the beginning. Although it would be interesting to know what lines for certain.

In fact I like to say, I like my QH's with white on them
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[rodeoratdogs]

I found out that DW was confirmed in this Paint horse in the study....

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/gq+santana


look at some of his babies...
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/gq+santana
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/impressively+santana
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pearlescence
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[rodeoratdogs]

This is interesting, I like the excerpt from the article you wrote Frank.

http://higbeefarm.com/gq.html
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