English is English... or not?

[skeenan]

I just have to ask, as I'm curious...

I've ridden English my entire life. I've noticed that English "styles" seem to vary between different breed disciplines.

For example, in a Morgan publication I've seen photos in which the rider has more of a saddle seat leg (away from the horse's sides), as opposed to the close contact I'm used to. And toes not pointing forward (something I've been drilled on endlessly over the years!).

I've also seen photos of Quarter Horses & Appys in which the horse is going in a western frame- head low, little to no rein contact by the English rider.

Are there breed-specific classes that allow for these English faux-pas, so to speak? Or is it just accepted "in the showring" adaptation?

Not trying to offend anyone!
I'm just curious...

[SouthCityTan]

Well Hunters, Jumpers, dressage, park seat, and cross country are all considered "english" events and are all extreamly different. A H/J saddle will push you forward slightly and have forward leg flaps. A dressage saddle has long flaps and a very deep seat to sit you down on your horse better. Park saddles are totally flat and have the withers cut out -- arabians/morgans/saddlebreds are shown in these and yes the riders legs are more out and forward than a H/J riders would be.

As for the H/J people at QH/paint shows you are refering to with "no contact"....it has recently been added to the QH rule book that HUS/OF horses must maintain light bit contact, ears must not dip below withers, and move freely at all 3 gaits. I just went to watch some QH Hunters about 3 weeks ago and it is getting more and more like watching open hunters all the time. The top 2-3 horses/riders could have easily made the transition to USAE A rated shows.....the lower in the pile mix definately had a different style and would be pretty noticeable above a novice level at a USAE show. Not to say they can't ride -- just they ride different.

Have you studied western? Cutters vs Western Horsemanship riders sit totally different and have different saddles...same could be said amongst ropers, barrel racers, etc. The styles definately change with the disipline -- form to function.

[Pauline]

The 'Competitive Horse Judging' book I got for Aqha, written by AQHA, the chapter titled Hunter Under Saddle Terms To Compliment Way Of Going, says things like
-Freer moving in her shoulder
-more extension of stride in all three gates
-showed more impulsion and drive off his hocks
-longer,more ground covering
-kept his hocks well underneath him showing greater drive from the hocks
-more sweeping trot
Hope this help to see what is expected at least in the qh ring.
Pauline

[skeenan]

[SouthCityTan]

Well if you go western the barrel racers saddles are the lightest! LOL! The ropers saddles weigh in at 45+lbs and it is hard to get them up on a tall horse if you are like me. The cutting saddles aren't much lighter but I believe that has been one of the funnest things I have ever done!

As for the appearing to be two kinds of english classes at breed shows such as Morgan/Arabian...There are Park and then Country Pleasure classes which are both ridden in saddle seats. The Park horses' knees are suppose to come level and above their chests....the country pleasure horses' knees can not get quite that high. Is that what you are seeing possibly?

[skeenan]

OK, found a photo:


This is what the AMHA calls "English Pleasure". Hard to tell, but it is an English hunt seat saddle, yet the rider is allowed a more formal coat. The category has its own set of rules. Note how high her hands are, and it's also hard to tell, but her lower leg isn't maintaining close contact.

Here's another photo from a Quarter Horse site:


See? Hardly any rein contact... my coach would have chewed me out for that!

[SouthCityTan]

http://www.hanesperformancehorses.com/

The QH riders are starting to put their legs back underneath their hip and pick up a little more rein contact all the time. The horses at that just do the HUS and no over-fences classes may not have as much rein contact as we're use to in open H/J, but the ones that ride O/F keep contact. They are really starting to breed some very tall, big moving QHs for the HUS classes. They can really move out and stretch.

I remember my open H/J trainer telling me one day though that in your division there are 4 classes and only one of them is on the flat -- therefore he'd rather have a horse that jumped great and moved ok than visa versa

[Arkansas Razorback]

When learning how to ride...whether you go English or Western. Most trainer's in our area start out with English. They feel this teach's the rider better balance, posture, horsemanship and learn the "feel" of the horse.

One trainer in particular, if they think your too heavy handed, will replace the rein's with twine! The kind that comes off of the feed sack's.

It's suprising at how many western rider's (in my opinion) don't know good horsemanship. Get that horse past a walk and they bounce like Pepe the Monkey. Don't have clue how to post.
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[Green Hills]

[Inyureye]

I always thought the lack of bouncing in western was based 1) on good riding 2) on the fact that folks were riding horses of a type with a very smooth trot (QHs) and 3) riding them at a jog (in english that would be called a "sitting trot") and if it came to a spine bouncing trot, one moved into a lope, or canter, in english. I've been brought up "English" - hunter jumper style - and have ridden a couple of western style saddles and horses, and believe me, posting is not as easy in one of those as it is in an english saddle, because to post in a western saddle, at least the ones I didn, you literally had to stand somewhat in your stirrups to do it, and that's not what the post is, in english. In english you post by moving onto your knees or thighs, more, and folks that stand up in their stirrups are really pumping and moving too much. But in western, you don't always (with alot of the saddles) have that upper leg contact to use and posting is a different thing. Unless I am relly mistaken, which I might be, so, in western, I would just move past a large trot, or not use it for very long. But even so, you can sit it if you want - or should be able to. On the other hand, if you really are moving out at a trot (not showing, working) for any long stretch, why not post, western, if it helps comfort wise?
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[skeenan]

[SouthCityTan]

Ahh, your comment didn't bother me. Yes you can often look at a group of riders and say "oh they ride this or that breed" vs open H/J. The QH's though have come a long long way from the older style of riding and are becoming pretty elegant. I attended the -03 APHA judges clinic and we watched tapes of english hacks from the 80's at world show....HEE HEE HEE...it was the open class and people looked like they were going to fall off these cow ponies in english tack. It was funny to see that because until then I didn't realize how far they had come.

I use to say "oh I don't like this or that kind of riding/showing" and really I've found that anything you do at a top level is difficult to be great at, but always pretty fun. I've owned TB's, QH's, Paints and ponies and love all of them.

[Green Hills]

[Green Hills]

[Inyureye]

Neat, Green Hills. I didn't know any of that about western showing and about the trots and how they should be executed.
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