Appaloosa mottling

[summerhorse]

Oh to answer the question no he isn't true roan unless one of his parents were roan (they don't sound like it) so if he isn't grey he would be black or seal brown (can't see his head well) varnish roan.
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Every mighty oak was once an acorn that stood its ground.

[Shaz]

I hope this can clarify things a bit for you. Lp Complex is the Appaloosa
"On/Off" Switch. Mottling can come and go! Mottling is part of Lp Complex which can activate or deactivate. I had an appaloosa mare with discreet colour that had a mottled nose each summer but it vanished each winter.
Not many do have this happen, but it can happen! Some mottling/characteristics don't show until the horse is older or reaches sexual maturity. Appaloosa's also carry a pattern (PATN) gene separately to Lp Complex.
Solid N/C Appaloosas can carry both PATN & Lp Complex and not show it, especially if they are bay or black horses. Remember all bay horses are black horses that carry Agouti and Extension transposing black to Mane, Tail and Legs. Bay and Black genes can suppress white spotting. This is why some bay and black horses can colour out very late in life, if they are carrying Lp Complex. If a N/C Solid appaloosa doesn't carry Lp Complex, but still carries PATN, they will not colour out. Because Lp Complex is your "ON" switch, a horse cannot show its PATN without it.
This is why Solid N/C Appaloosas are so valuable for breeding. They nick well with Homozygous Appaloosas like Fewspots and Snowcaps giving loud colour. A homozygous appaloosa carries two dominant copies of Lp...eg. LPLP and a heterozygous appaloosa carries LPlp. A solid N/C appaloosa without Lp Complex is lplp. When a homozygous App is mated to a Solid N/C App, the resulting foal will have colour and will be LPlp.
Hope this is of some help to you.
With appaloosa's, a blue roan generally has a black, dark bay or brown base. A Red roan is a chestnut, sorrel or bright red bay base.
We have not permitted the grey gene into our Appaloosa's in NZ, so we don't have any "GREY" problems.

[AppyLady]

[Shaz]

APPYLADY: Firstly, when I discuss Appaloosa N/C Solid horses, I am not talking about the outcrosses.
Secondly it is NOT CORRECT to state that N/C Solid Appaloosa's do not carry Lp Complex. It has been proven time and time again that in fact quite a few do. The reason why "The Appaloosa Project" got going in the first place is because breeders never knew whether these horses had Lp Complex or not, so the research commenced to see if they could isolate the Lp gene, which they now have, so that these type of horses could be DNA tested for this. Remember Lp is your On/Off Switch. If it hasn't activated, it appears as if it's not there. Time and time again it has been proven that both bay and black as colours, suppress white spotting and Lp Complex. These Appaloosa horses often shock people by colouring out later in life, at around five years of age or more, when Lp Complex activates. Up until then, they do not show any characteristics at all. Let me please clarify though, that not all N/C Solid Appaloosas pick up Lp Complex.
I agree that the best N/C Solids, in my opinion, are from leopard to leopard breeding, however that is only because I like spots. Plenty of people would disagree with this. Some people prefer blankets. It is true that a N/C Solid from roans won't have PATN to pass on, however given all of the other appaloosa qualities, other than colour, they are still a good prospect, to breed to quality fewspot and snowcap appaloosa horses. The LPLP horses can throw PATN as well.
I have a heterozygous black spotted blanket stallion that is LPlp. His jet black feet have just coloured out this year and are now amber. He is seven years old!

[AppyLady]

[Shaz]

It is a very strong theory as people from all over the world are bringing this topic up all the time.
I'm inclined to listen to the professionals who state this themselves, and clearly have strong beliefs in this area.
You are only stating two cases discussed, however there are numerous accounts of this being raised. Why discount all others? I personally know of a N/C solid black Appaloosa foal, who is near pure appaloosa, that is at present showing hope of having Lp Complex at 14 months old. He is growing a white hair in some places now and his jet black feet are showing a more translucent quality at present and his owner is crossing her fingers, waiting to see if he has Lp Complex. He is also from one leopard mare and one spotted blanket sire, both of whom are black.
What about the Solid black N/C appaloosa stallion, that is well publicised, that coloured after nine years. The owners gelded him when he coloured.
How would you explain this?
There are too many accounts of this happening, for there not to be merit in their beliefs.

[AppyLady]

If a horse colors out at a later age (I knew a mare who colored at 13) then the horse HAS LP...it was merely misidentified, no suppression factors involved. If LP is truely being suppressed, the horse will never color and never develop characteristics; it will remain indistinguishable from a non-Appaloosa it's entire life. Without a test for LP, the only way to tell if such a horse carries LP is to breed it to an non-LP carrier and produce an LP foal.

The vast majority of foals that are born non-colored have no mottled skin or striped hooves at birth; that develops later. However, they almost always display white sclera. It may be partial sclera, which is easy to miss, or hidden by blue eyes. I have heard of rare cases where the owner insists that the horse had no sclera at birth, but it developed later. However, in 30 years of breeding Appaloosas (with, unfortunately, more than my share of solid foals) I've never seen it happen.

These sclera-only foals are not eligible for regular registration. Under ApHC rules, the horse MUST have mottled skin and one other characteristic in order to receive regular papers. Therefore, these foals are incorrectly registered as NC, when they are in fact, carrying LP. This is why some people may be surprised when their NC horse later colors. But like I said, if a horse developes color, it HAS LP.

[Shaz]

Not according to "The Appaloosa Project"
I refer you to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theappaloosaproject
Perhaps you could do some reading there. Read what Phenotype Researcher Sheila Archer and Dr Rebecca Bellone Geneticist, have to say. You may be surprised.
You have also stated exactly the same thing as me, in a different way if you read what you've put. You've stated LP carrying N/C Appaloosa's colour out later and show LP. This is only for the N/C Appaloosa's that pick it up and have it activate later in age and sexual maturity. Therefore they are LPlp. The N/C Solid Appaloosa's that don't colour out are lplp. You state suppression genes cannot suppress Lp Complex, but it is discussed that they can. Lp Complex can switch On or Off. This has a bearing on colour. Whilst the research is ongoing, I'm more inclined to believe their theories above other people's, as this is their area of expertise. Until someone else proves otherwise.........
If you feel you know better than these two women, who are professionals in their field, perhaps you should volunteer your services to them.
The ApHC obviously work a little differently to ApHANZ. Our Association recognises the Appaloosa as a breed and not a colour. Our horses are registered in The Stud Book whether they are solid or coloured and are recognised as Appaloosa, providing all the relevant paperwork is done correctly at the time like Stallion Report Forms etc. We have also banned the grey gene in our breeding, so we don't have a grey gene problem.

[AppyLady]

No need to get snippy; I've been a member of the Appaloosa Project for quite some time now.

An LP carrier is NOT NC (that's a contradiction in terms!)...although they are frequently incorrectly registered as such. I believe we're talking about two different things -- you're referring to horses whose characteristics are difficult to distinguish at birth, but later become more prominent as the horse ages. This is just an Appaloosa being an Appaloosa! They like to keep us in suspense. This is especially true of mottled skin and striped hooves; they are rarely present at birth in non-colored foals. However, if the horse eventually colors, it has LP... it is NOT NC. This is pretty much written in stone. A horse can't develop Appaloosa coloring if it doesn't carry the Appaloosa gene (LP)!

True suppression of LP is when the horse shows no outward signs of being an Appaloosa; it appears to be lplp, and remains that way for its entire life. The only way to tell that these horses carry LP is by breeding them to non-LP horses and having them produce LP foals. This is rarely done, because the resulting foals are ineligible for registration. Maybe these LP suppressed horses are common in New Zealand, but they are extremely rare in the US. One such horse has been discussed in detail by the Appaloosa Project, and they already have his DNA on file for when a test for LP becomes available.

[Shaz]

I didn't mean to sound snipey. I thought I was being helpful actually. With 30 years experience in Appaloosa's, I would have thought your photos and experience would assist a lot with any research. You will have statistics or estimates on solids, characteristics etc, that some people wouldn't have, nor would ever have.
I think we are still talking about the same thing, but presenting in a different way. I refer to LPlp N/C Solid Appaloosa's in that way, because that is basically how they are described until characteristics appear, and people can differentiate. A lot of people out there without a lot of knowledge would SEE them in this light. That is how your ApHC see them.
Here in NZ, we accept that if they have two appaloosa parents, the resulting foal is appaloosa, regardless of colour and characteristics. I think most people love to have colour, but quite a few are just as happy to get a live healthy foal on the ground, regardless. If I'm lucky enough to get a solid from two leopards, I'd happily try breeding this back to a solid non-appaloosa to test the colour theory. I think it would be a good exercise, to test this out. I do know of a stallion here in NZ that is a solid from two solid appaloosa parents, but I haven't viewed them all to know whether they were lplp or LPlp, and I haven't viewed the progeny of this stallion. I'll take note for the future as I think such an experiment could be worthwhile. The problem with getting these statistics also is, that some people who are colour obsessed, don't bother to register solids. It's a shame because we do have a Stud here in NZ that stands a fewspot stallion over solid appaloosa mares with excellent results. She gets good colour and a variety of patterns......not just leopard.

[Joker w]

My avitar is also my ApHC stallion, Joker W. He was born with all his color but no mottled skin that showed, as he got older some mottling appeared but hasn't become terribly noticable. His dam is a bay with a frosted hip and blue eye, her sire is an AQHA/Palomino, her dam is a grey ApHC that was born a bay with just a couple spots, she has a lot of mottling.
Joker's sire is an AQHA sorrel with a bit of roaning. I thought he would turn grey as he got older but at the age of 6 he still has all his color. His dam also still has her color.

[Shaz]

Joker W: He is a striking looking horse. Nice Colour!

[Joker w]

Thanks Shaz, He is also been the greatest horse to be around that we have had in a long time. He is really fun and passes it all along.

[AppyLady]

He is beautiful, Joker W!

My Appaloosas aren’t heavily mottled either, not even the leopards. Especially not on their faces; they all have dark skin around the eyes. Some have a little mottling on the lips, and you might find some if you peek under their tails. I suppose it varies widely with different bloodlines.

At the risk of starting an argument, I really disagree with calling LP an “on/off switch”, although I realize it’s common usage. It makes it sound like the LP gene itself can be switched on and off randomly, and that simply isn’t the case. A horse either has LP or he doesn’t. If he does, it’s there permanently -- it can’t be switched off like a light switch.

LP is the gene that allows the pattern (PATN) genes (which are inherited separately) to be expressed. If a horse has LP, the color pattern will be visible (“on”). No LP -- no visible color pattern (“off”). However, varnish roan is not a PATN gene, it IS LP. It’s a very unstable pattern, which increases (or even decreases) over time, sometimes seemingly from day to day! But that’s just the nature of the pattern; it has nothing to do with LP switching on or off, which simply isn’t possible. If LP could truly switch off, then the white sclera, mottled skin, and striped hooves would disappear as well. Because those are LP, too.

Just my two cents.

[summerhorse]

Well Lp IS the on/off switch, for PATTERNS. (i.e. spots, blankets, leopards). But an Lp horse are varnish roans usually BUT can be very very minimally colored. They can also be characteristic only for some time (esp. if black) before showing any signs or snowflakes or varnish roaning. And they may only get a little bit. (which is how so many managed to stay in the AQHA for so long).

To be registered regular papers a horse must have 3 of the 4 following characteristics: pattern from 20 feet away (I think, thereabouts), mottled skin, striped or clear hooves under dark/non marked leg color, and sclera. Of course any horse with a noticeable pattern almost always has the other characteristics so that isn't really a problem, they may be minimal but they are normally there.

It is the non roaned (yet), snowflaked or patterned Lp horses that are misidentified because they may or may not have developed characteristics YET. If they do have them, no problem, regular papers. If they don't and develop them later you can have them changed on the papers (for a fee of course). The problem with pedigree research and even auction/show/sale/whatever identification is when people don't bother to change the color with the registry when the 10 year old black mare out there suddenly sprouts mottled skin and snowflakes or roany hairs. Now she no longer matches her papers and anyone looking at the source of her blanket foal by a QH might get confused if they see her listed as NC.

But the true (non Lp carrying) horses from appaloosa breeding ARE valuable and should be the first ones used in outcrossing (versus Qh and TB, use a solid appy) because they may also carry one or more PATN genes. These are the TRUE NC, solid Apps because the missed out on the Lp altogether. They will never ever "color out". BUT they are still better choices for breeding because they CAN be carrying any or all of the PATN genes whereas a QH or TB may carry minor PATN genes (not all PATN genes are strictly appy but the others are minor and more color boosters compared to APP PATN genes.

Because of all the continued outcrossing most apps are heterozygotes for both Lp and PATN and 25% of their foals when crossed will be NON Lp although they can be carrying PATN genes that too is 25% of not happening. continued outcrossing is seriously diluting the available patterns. Any outcrossed horses should only be bred back to appaloosas so at least every other generation goes back to a half (well that's a dream) but we'll say colored or characteristics horse app. There is really no reason to keep outcrossing so much with AI and shipped semen and ET and all that. Plus there seems to be no huge shortage of quality apps now, not like 40 years ago when that was the argument for continued outcrossing.
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Every mighty oak was once an acorn that stood its ground.