QH Pedigree analysis for novice

[blindleadingdeaf&dumb]

I've come to this board for help! I have a background in hunters and jumpers, and I have little to no knowledge about QH's and their breeding.

I have a family member with 2 mares he wants to breed. I've been enlisted to help find studs for them, but since I don't know anything about them, I'm obviously having a little trouble. I can pick out a nice-looking horse, but as far as pedigrees go, I'm lost. To my untrained eye, my mares seem to have a lot of the same names in several different places on their pedigrees; some of the crosses seem a little, um, odd to me. Would you want to breed to a horse with some of the same names, or would you want to, well, deepen the gene pool a little bit? Does anyone see anything glaringly wrong with either of these mares (on paper) and does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should be looking for when trying to find these girls some dates?

Both mares are well-built, and, as I have been told this is a huge issue, have been tested for HYPP and are N/N.

The first mare was bred to be a WP horse. She's about 15.3h, and is built more like a TB, which I'm told was/is popular in the showring. We would want to breed for something with WP show potential.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sheiks+new+look

The second mare was bred to be a cutting horse, so we would want to continue on with that and breed for another cutting horse. She is smaller, about 14.2h, and chunkier than the first mare.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rio+chili+pepper

**I'm somewhat aware that there is a big stink about Impressive horses, so I'm really not looking for any flamers or anything of that nature. I do welcome any and all rational comments, good or bad. Thanks!

[one okie gal]

You state both mares are HYPP N/N, correct? Is Rio Chili Pepper a HERDA Carrier? She needs to be tested for that, and their may be other genetic issues that will need to be looked at as well. The same needs to be done for whatever prospective sires you are considering.

I will say that I am not familiar with either of these horses nor with horses in the last two generations and that there are no pictures nor do I find any outstanding information listed up close in either pedigree. (In fact on Sheiks Cover it appears that instead of a picture, part of an ad for a stud has been pasted there.)

That said, I have to question why you would want to breed either of these two mares. Are they being bred with an idea to sell the resulting foals, or to campaign the resulting foals? Do they have any records for themselves? How about either parent for each of these mares, do they have ROM points in any discipline? If the owner is planning to show the foals then I would say don't breed. Plenty of foals and yearlings out there to campaign. If the foals are being bred to sell, the answer is pretty much the same as the market is full of horses with fine qualifications up close and not many buyers.

[horsetrainer89]

Ok, let me state that I don't know a lot of pleasure stallions since that is not my for-tay, so I will not recommend any. I would recommend Zippo Pine Bar, but she already has that in her pedigree. Secondly, that other mare is definitely not cutting bred especially the bottom side. Who ever told you that that was a cutting bred horse is full of sh**! Cutting is one thing I know and that is not a cutting horse. The top side is a little bit, but not much, but the bottom side basically cancels it out. When you get a REAL cutting horse, then I would suggest breeding to Peptoboonsmal (or any sire he has produced, since he has produced a lot of nice cutting foals), Smart Chic OLena, Autumn Acre, Quejanaisalena, Dual Pep, Mister Dual Pep, Elans Playboy, and my list could go on forever, but I have listed my top ones. I would highly recommend Peptoboonsmal, Smart Chic OLena, Quejanaisalena, and Autumn Acre!

[one okie gal]

Horsetrainer89,
Please refrain from the use of Italian musical terms that you cannot spell.

That said, I think you were incredibly RUDE. There was no reason for you to do that, especially to someone who had already requested not to be "flamed".

I think you need to apologize. You were out of line.

[jawt1]

Really like the bloodline on the Zippo mare alot- You might consider going to a Luke at Me ; Skyblue Walker; KC Leaguer; Rugged Lark, Mosby(sire of Acadamosby Award (3 time AQHA Super Horse); Dynamic Deluxe stud or even a Seven S Flashy Zipper stud(pretty palomino-but wait he is a Zippo horse too)-Humm- let me think some more. You could go to a TB with her- If you wanna go paint -I really like See Me Com N(a dual reg.TB). He's a super mover and that would still give you the pleasure route.

Filled in all but a few of the blanks on both mares' pedigrees, (and I'll work on it some more later).
Rio does have Doc Bar on top- so's there is cutting blood-(little info note-- Doc's Juniper is a full brother to Doc's Jack Frost(sire of Sun Frost and grandsire of K.Peterson'ssuper barrel horse- Bozo). She's got a lot of good using horse lines in her pedigree(Junior Reed sired a supreme champion), only "hole" I can find in her pedigee (and this is my option-so please don't get mad)-is the Impressive line- but if you have her tested and she's N/N then it should be alright. If you want a cutter go with Peptoboonsmal, or Gray Chic Olena. Using horse- maybe- Cook Cty Etc.. You wanna do reining- go with a Topsail Cody, a Hollywood Dunit or Trashadeous(please pardon spelling!) I would try to get away from Doc Bar if you can.
It really all boils down (in my book) to how the horse is built and their natural ability. I've had Hlt.bred horses that were excellent under saddle and I had a sho nuff using bred horse that didn't ride worth a flip(but he sure looked pretty in a halter). Its really hard to recommend without seeing the mare and watching her how she goes.
Again this is just my option- hope it helped alittle bit.

[one okie gal]

On Rio Chili Pepper, I think I would see if you really want to look at a cutter or if maybe you might want to think about a reiner. Has she had any training?

There are a lot of folks out there with fine horses and I do not subscribe to the idea that every good horse only has one discipline and can only be one thing. If this mare is going to be a basis of your breeding business, then you need to investigate her pedigree and find what she has in the way of point earning direct ancestors and what they earned their points in.

You didn't say where you were located. That may make some difference in what is considered a marketable horse. I know that Tivio horses seem to be more prevalent in Canada.

Rio is 8, has she had any foals? Have they any points? I wouldn't be in a huge hurry to breed. Look for a stud that is perfectly made with offspring that have points and $$ in the earnings. Also, you might want to look at her as a prospect for a reiner or mother of reiners.

There is nothing wrong with a horse having Impressive in the pedigree. These are fine and speedy horses, but they are also extremely smart. As long as they are HYPP N/N.

There are some other genetice situations that come from lines that have a lot of standing with some folks in the cutting world. Educate yourself on the different genetic disorders and make sure your mare and the selected stud are not carriers and do not have the genetic problems. You are correct that you are seeing similar names and same names. It is not a practice that I endorse, and statistically I believe it is not in the best interest of horses or the horse industry.

89 listed some "well-known" names. They are not by far the only or best for your purposes. Make a list. # of offspring. notable accomplishments and # of points and # of $ earned. Then look at pictures of horse. Do you even like the way it looks? Then try to meet people who have offspring of that stud and find out how the offspring acts and performs and then meet the stud and see if that is really what you want in your breeding program.

You can always send me a pm through this site and I will try to help you or find you a good resource for information. I am not a be all end all resource (a know-it-all), but I do have a computer, am a good reader and I know how to use the search function.

Apply the same ideas to your other mare, and maybe look see what other disciplines would work for her. She might do for jumping if bred the right direction.

I would be interested in seeing pics of the two mares as a horse can have a wonderful pedigree on paper but in the flesh not be breeding material

[one okie gal]

Ooh, yeah, Topsail Cody and Rugged Lark lines would make this a nice rounded pedigree.

Leaving for Conroe, TX just as soon as I get off computer. Mr. has been waiting for me!! May think of something while I'm gone.

[horsetrainer89]

I was a little rude, so sorry, but when I look at a horse that is bred for a specific discipline, then I want it to not have a halter horse in it. Cutting horses have a completely different body types than halter horses and that could interfere with the horses performance. I only meant to get the message out that if you want a good cutter and to produce good cutters, then you have to go completely cutter. When mentioning the cutting sires that I did, I have seen all of their pedigrees, seen their offspring, have seen the actual sire produce and some of their foals (both in person and on tv) perform, and have studied them for my breeding purposes. I did mention well known sires, but if their offspring are money earners, then you can't really go wrong with them. I don't know a lot of people who have heard of Autumn Acre and Quejanaisalena (or anybody besides me who can spell Quejanaisalena without having to look it up). My info comes from yes the internet, but only the AQHA site to look up performance records, but it also comes from studying the horse from other things. You cannot find everything you want off of the internet. Some of it comes from actually knowing the horse and seeing it in real life.

I personally don't like to focus on more than one discipline with a horse. I am a shower though and I breed for certain disciplines rather than for all around. Many horses can become all around, but I would like to get them a show career first.

[horsetrainer89]

And no they are not the only ones out there, but they produce great horses that win money and points and look good doing it.

[blindleadingdeaf&dumb]

Thanks for all the replies! I've lurked for a little while, so I expected one of those responses. I'll place value on that response accordingly. There's a lot of good info that was given, so it may take me a little while to sort thru it all.

Here's more info on the horses...

Both horses are HYPP N/N, and I believe they were tested for HERDA as well, so I'll double-check that and make sure it gets done if it hasn't already been done. Neither mare has been bred before to our knowledge; we bought Rio Chili Pepper when she was 4, and Sheik's New Look when she was 3.

As far as the cutting horse business, here's all I know: some guy bred her to be his personal cutting horse, he put her in training, and then he passed away. She was sold, had a good bit of WP training, then we got her. To me, she doesn't look like a halter horse. She's very athletic and agile, so I thought about reining as well, but I wasn't sure if that was the right route to take. I'll definitely start investigating that. Forgive my ignorance, but what is a using horse?

With Sheik's New Look, I really don't see anywhere to go other than WP. She doesn't have that hunter movement, and I've never seen her move forward ever. When she races around the pasture, it's at a slow jog. I feel like I'd be depending on the stallion too much to change her, and that's scary to me.

I'll try to get some pictures for y'all soon; it's raining here right now. I feel like conformation and ability are much more important than what's on paper, so I wouldn't want to breed anything that looks funky or has major flaws.

Again, thanks. I'll look at everything that was said here and come back when I have more questions.

ETA: I am located in Louisiana.

[horsetrainer89]

To me and being around the QH world my whole life, the pedigree is extremely important when having a horse. When breeding, pedigree should be 25% deciding factor with conformation and everything else taking up the rest(75%). To me, when a horse is bred to do something, then it is a lot easier for the horse and the trainer to learn/teach what is expected of the horse. When a foal is bred for cutting, that foal at a very young age will be cutting cows on its on. When bred for reining, them foals will slide in what ever they are in. Pleasure horses do the same thing. They are slow goers and don't really care to go fast. I am sure you get my point. It is much harder to get a horse that is not bred to do a specific discipline rather than one that is bred for that specific discipline.

[jawt1]

Just want to wish you luck with your two nice mares. I hope you get some really good babies off of them.

[NZ Appaloosas]

Pedigree should never be more important that conformation...



Diane
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[horsetrainer89]

which is why the conformation gets 75% versus pedigree getting 25%.

[NZ Appaloosas]

Then why did you write this: "To me and being around the QH world my whole life, the pedigree is extremely important when having a horse." A 25% value does not make it important, makes it rather unimportant.

I have a filly that, going by "pedigree", shouldn't be able to squat, since we bred a reiner to a jumper of a quite lengthy "English" pedigree. However, mom's conformation fits more inline with that of a jumper, despite her pedigree (maybe she forgot to read it???), so breeding her to the jumper made great sense. I now have a filly that has the ability to jump, the love to jump, and the agility of a reiner, which should be a total bonus when doing speed trials, etc.

Pedigrees are nice, but, like anything else in the horseworld, years of experience and learning are a much better tool to use. My 41 years of experience with horses has taught me to descern the actual similarities and differences between a sire and dam that can never show up in a pedigree.


Diane
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"Nothing can be sliced so thin that it doesn't have two sides" Anon.

CAUTION: All emails are the copyrighted property of the author, and may not be reproduced, printed or forwarded without permission from the author.