Unregistered Horses

misssquirrel · Member Joined: 05 Aug 2006 Posts: 90 Location: WI

Thought I'd put this in it's own thread to not continue to take over someone else's. Cool

Pedigree Fanatic · Member Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 120

Thanks for explaining. Yes, it sounds like your mom just loves those babies! It also makes sense, since she's been isolated in a non-horse area, that she just doesn't realize how much things have changed in the horse breeding scene.

If it helps at all, maybe you can tell her that the people you chat with on this site who ARE in touch with what's happening out there - people who go to sales all the time, people who buy and sell horses all the time and see what sells and what doesn't...believe there is almost no market for unregistered foals. In other words, if you breed 'em, be prepared to be stuck with 'em for keeps!!

In this economy, I think it would be an expensive decision to go ahead and make more foals when you know ahead of time they most likely won't sell. But it's your mom, and I know how that goes. Good luck trying to be the voice of reason in the discussion! Laughing

Linda_D · Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:36 am Post subject:

Exactly. Moms (and Dads) are much more likely to listen to strangers than their kids.

misssquirrel · Member Joined: 05 Aug 2006 Posts: 90 Location: WI

Oooh, if I told her what we were talking about, I think she would be ticked. Doesn't matter that we are trying to be constructive. Oh well, maybe she will "come around" this summer. Who knows, we may well not have any of them by this winter, it all depends on how things go. See, if I had had the cash up front when we got this stud, this conversation would be intirely different. But, the lady needed these horses out of her place so she could go back on the road, and I was blinded by want, and nothing else. The first person of course with the cash, would get the horse. So, I asked my mom if I could BORROW the money. Well, all the sudden, my step dad is walking around all excited telling my husband about how THEY are getting a paint horse, how HE is finally getting a paint horse, oh how he's ALWAYS wanted one. So, one night, my mom and him come into our house, and says there's one way I can think of to settle this little misunderstanding between you two. I am buying the horse he will be MY horse. You guys can TRAIN him and RIDE him for me. Oh by the way, I want him broke to ride AND drive. Boy did I see red. Well, I figure, if I put 275 bucks worth of hay into him this summer, he'll be mine. Right? Yeah, it was worth a thought anyhow.

Anyhow, seeing as the mare that the lady threw in for nothing with him is skin and bones, and is currently in my pasture right behind the house seperated from him, SHE won't get bred. And I hope against hope, that he doesn't mysteriously get out of the round pen she is keeping him in, and get in with our app mares, beacause there is a 2 year old pinto filly in with them, and my 2 yr old gelding, and yearling stud colt. Now this stud of "hers" is a big puss I found out. But if there are mares in heat, and he sees my boys as a threat, no telling what he will do.

So hopefully, now that she has this buying and adopting horses bug, maybe she will see the state of things how they are in this day and age. You should see the BEAUTIFUL appy mare they brought home of sunday. 9 years old, 15hh, black and white, big halo spots in a blanket over her hips, roaned up her body lightning stripe up her face, and a total sweetheart. They got her from the humane society in a neighboring town for NOTHING. No adoption fee, nothing. Just fill out the app, provide references, and come get her. It cost them 50 bucks to hire someone to go haul her home. Don't know if she knows anything yet, but that one was courtesy of my grandma telling me (who like a dummy) told her, that they had a 11 year old pinto mare for adoption. I was already at my limit for horses. Shoulda kept my mouth shut. Because guess what. She is in with MY herd, will be eating the hay I provide for MY horses. At least now my mare has a pasture buddy who is mature and distinguished like her. Not some rambunctios kid. lol. They took to each other right away, so I guess that is the only consolation I'll get there. Oh well, my husband just shakes his head and says, I told you so. And I shake my head and say, yep, yah did. lol. TTFN!!
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pocomoonskyeyes · Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject:

I just had to throw this in not trying to get anyones fluff in a dander mind you..... 100 years ago there was no registry for at least two of the nations top breed registries.... does that mean Quarter horses and Paints are no good???? most breeds today would by your classification be no good. I know people who have unregistered horses and they claim that they ride just as well as those with papers, the horse has no idea if it is registered or not. To them a good horse is a good horse. there are unregisterable horses competing in some events that allow it doing just as well as those that have papers, For them it is ability not caligraphy that matters.
I knew a guy that had a half appy half belgian He could've roped PBR bulls with him. I guess it is all in what you want. Provided you have good reason.
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misssquirrel · Member Joined: 05 Aug 2006 Posts: 90 Location: WI

Not sure exactly what I said was no good. I wasn't classifying any breed of horse. These are horses that even if both breeds had their papers that I wouldn't breed together. For example, you don't take a long backed horse, and breed to another long backed horse. ect ect. I have a very beautiful yearling stud colt. I wanted to cut him when he hit the ground last year. He stood so knock kneed when he was a foal, that it was crazy. Everyone convinced me wait, see if he grows out of it. These people don't understand. Even if he was the most beautiful horse on earth and had the most awsome temperament, I still didn't like the idea of breeding with him, he could pass that conformation flaw on to his foals. So, I'm watching him walk up to me in the pasture the other day, and guess what. He paddles with his front legs. From the knees down. There is no way I could with a sound mind use a horse like this for breeding. Don't get me wrong. There are actually quite a few awsome horses out there that result from the most unlikely pairings. That's great, and lucky for them. I don't want to take that chance though, with a pretty average stud, and average mares, and end up with average foals when the market is already flooded with that. Now, if I had a stellar mare, and happened to own an above average stud, if I planned on being able to keep the resulting foal, you bet, I probably would have no qualms about breeding the 2 to get even a pintaloosa, or whatever "unregisterable" breed. But, I have a hard time producing average in this day and age, knowing the foals would eventually have to be sold because you can't keep them all, and they would not even have a pedigree to help sell them.
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pocomoonskyeyes · Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:26 am Post subject:

misssquirrel · Member Joined: 05 Aug 2006 Posts: 90 Location: WI

I see what you're saying. I am just worried that she will get in over her head, and resulting, drag me in with her. Another prob, is we are on 20 acres between the 2 of us, and alot of it is not pastureable at this point. That means alot of expense in buying hay, and so on and so forth. I am very fortunate that my mare does throw very "loving" sweet foals. Somewhere along the line though, she didn't get the memo that she is supposed to put appy spots on them!! I had one girl years ago, end up with 2 of my foals. Half brother and sister. Then the silly girl got married and pregnant, and couldn't take on any more horses. We kept the next full brother and sister for a couple of years (the filly was 2 and the colt was 1) My mom ended up giving both of them away, after I paid to geld the colt, and nursed the filly through a bad leg injury/scrape. The last I heard, the colt was in Illinois, and the filly I get to watch at the fair every year. They CLEAN HOUSE in most classes. Her little girl LOVES HER! She loves her so much, that the next full sister we sold to some other people again as a 2 yr old, didn't work out for those people, so the girl and her parents bought her from the other people. So now, they have 2 of my babies also, and love them to pieces!! I never got more than $300 for any of these foals, and like I said, 2 of them were given away to 4-H families. Thankfully (in a way) I never registered any of these foals, and being as they were out of my old stud, and my mare, I was not out a breeding fee. But now, there is no way I could breed and sell. I would totally lose my butt. But, I just don't think even if we did "need" more horses, that breeding what we have together is our best choice. I just don't think that either mare would be a good combo with this stud. I'll see if I can't find some pics here soon, and maybe you'll see what I mean. Thx for listenin to me ramble! have a great day. P.S. your guy looks like a pretty nice lookin horse from what I can tell in the pics on your post! Smile

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pocomoonskyeyes · Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject:

Believe me I know what you mean. So far everyone of the foals My stallion has produced has either been given away or used as barter for a service needed. One foal a mare rejected and I couldn't feed it like it needed(because of my job) so I contacted my Vet and she found him a home with a retired doctor who A)Loves him to death and B) babies his every need, don't even think a sniffle goes untreated.C) he could afford to have him trained to suit his needs and care for him.
Another group of breedings we needed hay with a hay shortage going around so we agreed to breed some of his mares in exchange for some much needed hay,and temporary boarding. Do I wish these horses could've been registered? You Bet!!! But these people absolutely do not care anything about registration papers, just the resulting foals. Believe me I shook my head when they told me that. I could neither believe it nor understand it , but it made me realize that to some people at least, paper is good for one thing only, wiping your rear.
Personally I think a horse should be either registered or registerable, if for no other reason than to allow the horse more venues for success. But I have to look at the point of the horse owners who are on the other side of the coin. Hey there are still some venues open to unregistered horses as well,look at 4H or barrel racing for example. the only papers required are a health certificate and a coggins test result.
Oh , If you click on the pics I put in my last message it will take you to where my photo albums are and you can see them clearer. I just thought this forum only allowed 100 pixel pics, because that was the requirement for avatar size.
As for your Mom's desire for foals, let's face it there's nothing cuter to a horse lover than a new foal, unless you are heartless. But as with all things moderation is the key. All I intend to do is to ensure that some genetic diversity goes along with the super popular stallions out there that seem to command the breeding market today. Every now and then a surprise comes along Like APHA's Mark that Spot (I think that is his name), a horse that's supposed to be a "nobody" that ends up being a "somebody". another option if she does breed, since hay seems to be a concern is try to find someone who is cutting hay that needs help. All my hay needs this year is coming in this way. I help out with the fuel,baling twine,and manual labor... in return a portion of each cutting is mine. I guarantee you it is MUCH cheaper for me I'll end up with about 10% of what I would spend and some good old fashioned hard work. We put up about 200 bales before it got too dark tonight, a portion of which is mine.
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NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject:

So why breed? And if not breeding, why keep him intact? Sorry, but having a "rare" bloodline doesn't cut it, if that bloodline produces less than average horses. Breeders should always be striving for producing that "perfect" horse, whether we get it or not, not striving for "well, it can make an okay trail horse". A horse can have the sweetest temperament in the world, but if it can't get out of its own way, why bother? If a horse does not have conformation to excell at a job (be it chasing cows or flying over fences or pulling a cart), then it should be having babies, plain and simple.

Diane
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horsewoman1965 · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject:

I can see where Miss Squirrel is coming from. Was kind of in a situation myself.
I will say this about hay and the prices of horses for both of you to compare.
Cost of hay alone for us was over $5000 last year and we get it in bulk from our neighbor at a good price. We sold 6 horses this year by a stud very simliar to Pocomoonskyes. Babies sold for anywhere from $500 for weanling up to $1750 for 3 year old. Now all together the 6 that sold this year just about covered the cost of hay. Now we also had to worm every 2 months, give shots to all,farrier expenses, and feed. Can you see we did not make a profit?
Several years ago I was right where you are pocomoonskyes. Same statements even almost to a T.
My advice would be, if you are going to have stud horses, even if you're breeding 1 or 2 a year, get them studs out there in some disipline and try to make a name for them. Even if it is not at breed shows. Go do something with them.
If I owned a stud, it would be out trying to make a name for itsself, would be registered, would be in the Breeders trust (APHA), signed up for any Futurities close by, and only bred to mares where the resulting foal can be registered. If the mare owners choose not to register the baby, that would be on them.
Any baby you put on the ground needs to try to have an edge over all the others out there...period.
Just my 2 cents
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pocomoonskyeyes · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:10 pm Post subject:

Whoa, hold on there, rein in those runaway horses!!Have you looked at his conformation? If so Critique him there. And Just because I don't show DOES NOT mean that he is not fully capable of competing. He LOVES rounding up cows and working a herd. You may be able to show But quite honestly I just don't have that kind of money or Time. It seems to me that just way too many people put WAY too much emphasis on that,especially when People I know have bred to a Stallion that had shown, Recieved all those awards.... and ended up with a resulting foal they couldn't wait to get rid of AFTER spending all that money to produce an unwanted horse.
I honestly don't think you actually read all my previous posts, Or you wouldn't have come with an attitude,belittling my horses which you have never been around. ALL I was Trying to say was that some people don't care about registration papers, and give some of my personal experiences. Also, A good "trail Horse" as you referred to his Daughter was actually Better than one that had recieved Professional training ,performance wise. She Definitely has potential. Trail riding can be competitive... Heard of Craig Camerons extreme cowboy race...ACTHA, or any other trail riding competitions?
It is a scientific fact that genetic diversity or actually a lack thereof HARMS a species instead of improving it. What is a Perfect specimen if the assn's breed standards apply only to Halter classes but not the performance classes? Seems to me to be double standard.
I wouldn't say that his is a Rare line - Hank a Chief produced well over 400 Get all by live cover which I think is quite a feat in itself. However not many have him that close in their pedigree. As for gelding him I prefer to wait and practice birth control methods instead. Too often at horse gatherings have I heard "I wish they hadn't gelded him I would've liked to have a breeding with him". I know one of the most common reasons for gelding is manageability, as long as there isn't a medical or behavioral reason for gelding him I won't. When I do manage to get him showing I don't want to have that regret. Personally I do believe that quality not quantity, is what my or any breeding program should be about. I have in fact turned people down in regards to breeding to him. Simply said NO that won't work,mostly because of unregisterable get. Even though there is a possibility the get could be registered with the Pinto assn. Some I allowed mostly because of my close relationship with these people and knew what and why they were looking to breed.
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I have the best horse in the world, and it is my hope that each horse owner feels the same way about their own horse(s)

pocomoonskyeyes · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject:

Thank you Horsewoman, I do understand that while reducing hay costs There are others that I can't reduce. I would love to get him in the BT this year, But that may not be possible this year as I recently lost my job, and am currently looking for a new one, that was a plan that just got burst. I only registered him last year got him DNA'd listed on the Stud book etc. I know he would benefit from being shown, But now that is not possible for at least another year or two.
I am glad horse prices are that good where you are but here I can go to a sale and spend as much on 2 maybe 3 horses for what you get for a weanling. They are the worst anyone around has seen.
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I have the best horse in the world, and it is my hope that each horse owner feels the same way about their own horse(s)

NZ Appaloosas · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:27 pm Post subject:

Firstly, where did I mention the word "show"? I said "job". That can be showing, that can be herding cattle, or whatever. The once-a-month trail ride, however, isn't a job (and no, I'm not saying that's what you are saying, either).

Secondly, you don't have to go spend thousands at breed shows, to show. Local saddle clubs, open shows, etc., are usually considerably cheaper. And don't have travel costs involved. It would be quite easy to build up a local reputation, just based on local shows.

Thirdly, the "rare" bloodline was one of YOUR reasons for keeping him intact...he's not my breed, I wouldn't know what was rare in APHA if the studbook bit me.

And fourthly, horses right now, especially in the US, are a dime a dozen. I know people who are working with various sheriffs' departments and the like trying to track down owners who are dumping horses, in one case a number of still-suckling foals.

So, other than the fact that you love your boy, why should he be a stallion? What is it about him that makes him so much more desireable than say the leading APHA reiner, or leading APHA cutter, or leading APHA other discipline?

There's a saying...great stallions make awesome geldings. So, what makes your stallion so awesome he wouldn't be better off as a gelding?

Diane
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horsewoman1965 · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject:

Glad you haven't taken anything I said wrong.
Hey, he may have a niche (?) for working cows! That would be awesome if you could get him really competitive.
Maybe some local Open shows that does PAC points? I believe it is like $25 per year to sign them up for PAC with APHA and then any Open shows that keep up and report back to APHA for PAC, those points go on his APHA record.
Have you considered also registering him Pinto? That might open up a few more possibilities for you also.
Btw...Kudos to you for Registering him and getting the paperwork done!
So sorry for your job loss Sad

Hopefully things will look better in the near future and you can start to try to chase some points, money, or a good reputation for your boy.
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