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ftfotb
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Location: Wellington, NV
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 Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:17 pm Post subject: Pertaining to King Plaudit (TB) and Plaudit (QH) |
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Another original Jockey Club certificate, this one for Pas Seul (1893), a half-sister to the dam of King Plaudit (TB).
Susan
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Pat Mefferd
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Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Oh Crap....Susan.....I"m just dying with ENVEY!
Don't ya just love the wonderful penmenship of the day? I hate to sound presumptious....I wonder if she was transferred and that record is w/those papers? If it does, no need to show it....just curious.
Also curious about her #308. Was she the 308th horse to be registered up thru that time...
I know, back in the 1930's (I would have to look it up to make sure if that is the correct time line)...that JC registration #'s began with the foal year...Mare foaled in 1937 JC37000, etc. Then foals of 1938 JC38000, etc.
I think in the 1920's they were continuous w/their numbers...from 00001 on, et.
Pat
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Pat Mefferd, PM MEFFERD Pedigree Research, Anderson, CA. (Retired)
Proud daughter of Fred Kennedy (1982 Stuntmans Hall of Fame)
http://members.tripod.com/~horsefame/fredkennedy.html |
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ftfotb
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Location: Wellington, NV
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Pat Mefferd wrote: | Oh Crap....Susan.....I"m just dying with ENVEY!
Don't ya just love the wonderful penmenship of the day? I hate to sound presumptious....I wonder if she was transferred and that record is w/those papers? If it does, no need to show it....just curious.
Also curious about her #308. Was she the 308th horse to be registered up thru that time...
I know, back in the 1930's (I would have to look it up to make sure if that is the correct time line)...that JC registration #'s began with the foal year...Mare foaled in 1937 JC37000, etc. Then foals of 1938 JC38000, etc.
I think in the 1920's they were continuous w/their numbers...from 00001 on, et.
Pat |
The penmanship of the day is what impresses me, too. And the class that shows in every area of the TB world back then. It's admirable.
I'm pretty sure the horses were numbered each year...starting over with the numbers like you showed for each year. I've never seen a TB registration number from before 1900, so I can't say for sure. I'm assuming this certificate/mare was the 308th horse registered that year. But you know what they say when we assume. Ha.
In my ASB foal books from the 1970s forward, they show the registration numbers for each horse, and they still followed that same format.
I forgot to answer you about transfers - there is nothing on the back of the papers I have from this era, or anything attached to the papers.
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Pat Mefferd
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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OK....I need to go back to school and study my spelling.
With regard to JC registration numbers.....I'll go thru my cards and pull some that I have their numbers on.
I was told by Monika Volger, many years ago about the JC numbering system. Monika worked out of San Luis Rey Downs, where Vessels Stallion Station is, Susan & Judy, you may remember her. She moved back to Kentucky and went to work for one of the big sales outfit, doing pedigree's....I lost track of her in the late 1970's.
Her five generation pedigree's were on a form the size of a half sheet of 8 1/2 x 11" paper...( 4 1/4" x 5 1/2"). I still have some of those old pedigree's she did for me, someplace around here.
Pat
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Pat Mefferd, PM MEFFERD Pedigree Research, Anderson, CA. (Retired)
Proud daughter of Fred Kennedy (1982 Stuntmans Hall of Fame)
http://members.tripod.com/~horsefame/fredkennedy.html |
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ftfotb
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Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Wellington, NV
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Pat Mefferd wrote: | OK....I need to go back to school and study my spelling.
With regard to JC registration numbers.....I'll go thru my cards and pull some that I have their numbers on.
I was told by Monika Volger, many years ago about the JC numbering system. Monika worked out of San Luis Rey Downs, where Vessels Stallion Station is, Susan & Judy, you may remember her. She moved back to Kentucky and went to work for one of the big sales outfit, doing pedigree's....I lost track of her in the late 1970's.
Her five generation pedigree's were on a form the size of a half sheet of 8 1/2 x 11" paper...( 4 1/4" x 5 1/2"). I still have some of those old pedigree's she did for me, someplace around here.
Pat |
I remember her. That was years ago!
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Pan Zareta
2 Year Old
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 45
Location: West TX boonies
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ftfotb wrote: | I'm pretty sure the horses were numbered each year...starting over with the numbers like you showed for each year. I've never seen a TB registration number from before 1900, so I can't say for sure. I'm assuming this certificate/mare was the 308th horse registered that year. But you know what they say when we assume. Ha.
In my ASB foal books from the 1970s forward, they show the registration numbers for each horse, and they still followed that same format.
I forgot to answer you about transfers - there is nothing on the back of the papers I have from this era, or anything attached to the papers. |
Susan, I don't know how the JC numbered the ctfs. issued to stock foaled prior to the time it was founded, but I'm pretty sure the early foal reg. ctfs. were sequential (no 'rollback' with each new yr.) from 1894 at least through 1901. I have to call the JC soon on a naming issue  anyway & will check. |
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Pat Mefferd
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Posts: 1909
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Judy...Will be looking forward to what the JC has to say about their numbering system.
What I did notice....on the two different sets of papers....
LIBBIE L JC #304 (foaled 1887)
PAS SEUL JC #308 (foaled 1893)
Since there were five years between the two mares foal years and only four numbers between their JC #'s...This kid of tells me that each year, they started out with a set of new numbers.
I did notice that both mares papers were stambed in red, under Haggins signature..Jan 21, 1909. Could it be that they weren't registered until then....or it might they were consigned to a sale..Jan 21, 1909.
I also see in the upper right hand corner, names written what looks like in pencil.
Can't quite make them out..
LIBBIE L. kind of looks like Ned Watson?
PAS SEUL kind of looks like Jr @ Agnew? (not sure that makes sense)
Probably doesn't matter...just curious.
Pat
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Pat Mefferd, PM MEFFERD Pedigree Research, Anderson, CA. (Retired)
Proud daughter of Fred Kennedy (1982 Stuntmans Hall of Fame)
http://members.tripod.com/~horsefame/fredkennedy.html |
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ftfotb
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Location: Wellington, NV
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| Pan Zareta wrote: |
Susan, I don't know how the JC numbered the ctfs. issued to stock foaled prior to the time it was founded, but I'm pretty sure the early foal reg. ctfs. were sequential (no 'rollback' with each new yr.) from 1894 at least through 1901. I have to call the JC soon on a naming issue anyway & will check. |
Judy, I do know that if you call the Jockey Club and ask for a registration number for a particular horse, they won't give it to you. I found that strange. There are no registration numbers in the regular ASB 1-27, nor in any major sale catalogs (unlike QHs).
There are JC numbers in the APHA stud books in the section for TB and QH stallion listings in the back; I've seen some JC numbers in ads for TBs in QH, Paint and ApHC publications, in the Palomino stud books, and in the later JC foal books.
Susan
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Pat Mefferd
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:04 am Post subject: |
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And speaking of #'s....I hate the fact that the AQHA has it's own numbering system for the Thoroughbreds.
In the majority of the cases w/the ApHC's...the JC # is listed in the Stud Books.
Pat
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Pat Mefferd, PM MEFFERD Pedigree Research, Anderson, CA. (Retired)
Proud daughter of Fred Kennedy (1982 Stuntmans Hall of Fame)
http://members.tripod.com/~horsefame/fredkennedy.html |
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ftfotb
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Pat Mefferd wrote: | And speaking of #'s....I hate the fact that the AQHA has it's own numbering system for the Thoroughbreds.
In the majority of the cases w/the ApHC's...the JC # is listed in the Stud Books.
Pat |
Yes, and APHA also has their own numbering system for TBs, which is a different 'T' number than what AQHA uses.
Also, APHA will use AQHA's appendix or AQRA numbers as regular AQHA numbers, which gets them the wrong QH in the pedigree. It's a mess.
Susan
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Pat Mefferd
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| Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:26 am Post subject: |
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And you don't even want to hear about how AQHA Appendix horses were treated (with regards to their # system) in the early days of the ApHC....
The ApHC has had so many different numbering systems...as we've talked before...simply mind bogling...which requires a capital GRRRRRRR!
Pat
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Pat Mefferd, PM MEFFERD Pedigree Research, Anderson, CA. (Retired)
Proud daughter of Fred Kennedy (1982 Stuntmans Hall of Fame)
http://members.tripod.com/~horsefame/fredkennedy.html |
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Pan Zareta
2 Year Old
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 45
Location: West TX boonies
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ftfotb wrote: | | Judy, I do know that if you call the Jockey Club and ask for a registration number for a particular horse, they won't give it to you. I found that strange. |
That explains why I had to give them some "historically significant" names (KY Derby winners Plaudit, Alan-a-Dale & Agile) to run through their db, so they could look at (but not disclose) the reg. #s, which I was told indicate that the early foal regs. were indeed sequential. I would've kept feeding them names to determine specifically when the yearly rollback began and check on numbering of pre-1895 stock, but it took ~15 min. just to check three and the lady on the other end of the 'phone seemed to be getting rather impatient. 
You may be able to explain the vagaries of the AQHA's numbering of TBs, but I've not found any rhyme or reason to it. A 1940's mare may have a much earlier number than her 1930's dam. Apparently, they weren't entering full pedigree on the TBs, at first(?).
Judy |
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ftfotb
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Posts: 133
Location: Wellington, NV
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Pan Zareta wrote: |
You may be able to explain the vagaries of the AQHA's numbering of TBs, but I've not found any rhyme or reason to it. A 1940's mare may have a much earlier number than her 1930's dam. Apparently, they weren't entering full pedigree on the TBs, at first(?).
Judy |
Hi Judy,
The AQHA numbering system for TBs, ("T") were assigned sequentially as the pedigrees "arrived" at AQHA. If you look at the pedigree of a TB at AQHA, many times you'll see sequential numbers within that pedigree. I believe APHA does the same thing with internal TB numbers in their database.
For example, Luke McLuke and Percentage have AQHA T numbers that are only four numbers apart. This tells me that both of them "arrived" together in a pedigree at AQHA. I suspect it was in Three Bars' pedigree.
Years ago, if a TB had a T number, it meant it had an AQHA registered foal in the database. Now this isn't true. They must have gone back and assigned T numbers further back in the TB pedigrees as they entered those horses into the database. An example of this would be Three Bars, whose number is much lower than Percentage and Luke McLuke's T numbers. Another example would be the TBs behind Joe Reed. Bonnie Joe's T number is much higher than Joe Blair's, and I would bet Bonnie Joe (1894) didn't sire any registered QHs.
Susan
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ftfotb
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Pan Zareta wrote: |
That explains why I had to give them some "historically significant" names (KY Derby winners Plaudit, Alan-a-Dale & Agile) to run through their db, so they could look at (but not disclose) the reg. #s, which I was told indicate that the early foal regs. were indeed sequential. I would've kept feeding them names to determine specifically when the yearly rollback began and check on numbering of pre-1895 stock, but it took ~15 min. just to check three and the lady on the other end of the 'phone seemed to be getting rather impatient.
Judy |
Judy, I've noticed that from about 1920 forward (very approximate date), the domestic TB numbers assigned were sequential, after the year number. For example, Three Bars' number is 4005248. He was the 5,248th horse registered in 1940. They all seem to follow this pattern from about that point forward, although I've seen some strange numbers on some TBs that don't make any sense and don't seem follow the "year/number of horse registered that year" pattern. The imported horses seem to follow a different numbering system, too. *Beduino's Jockey Club number is 0018775. He was a 1968 foal, imported from Mexico.
Susan
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ftfotb
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: Jockey Club Foal Book Page |
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Here is a page from the Jockey Club's American Stud Book, Foals of 1975, showing registration numbers.
Susan
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